Josh Bersin, industry analyst and founder of The Josh Bersin Company, joins Dr. Jessica Kriegel to dive into the evolving role of HR and its influence on business performance. With 25 years of expertise, Josh shares why HR professionals are essential to organizational success and how companies can transition HR from a cost center to a strategic partner. This insightful conversation covers the changing workforce dynamics, the gig economy, and the impact of AI on future business models. Tune in to hear Josh’s thoughts on building inclusive cultures, fostering leadership, and the importance of thoughtful growth.
Josh’s Why:
Josh explains how he stumbled into the HR industry, discovering a passion for supporting HR professionals and helping them thrive within organizations.
HR as a Strategic Partner:
Josh emphasizes the evolution of HR’s role from recruitment-focused to becoming a central driver of business outcomes, particularly in larger organizations.
The Value of Trust in Leadership:
Jessica and Josh discuss how CEOs often assume they understand HR, but the most successful leaders trust and learn from their HR partners.
Workplace Dynamics and the Gig Economy:
Josh reflects on the shift in employee expectations, the rise of gig work, and how companies must rethink value propositions to attract and retain talent.
Remote Work and Reimagining Office Culture:
Josh offers insights into the remote work debate, noting that collaboration and creativity often thrive best in person, while flexible work remains key for employee well-being.
Leadership and Personal Growth:
Drawing from his own experiences, Josh underscores the importance of understanding business challenges firsthand to become a more effective leader and consultant.
The Evolution of Company Culture:
Josh describes culture as the unwritten rules that shape behaviors and performance, highlighting that clear cultural values attract the right employees and sustain high performance.
Growth vs. Profit Focus:
Josh critiques the pressures on companies to prioritize growth over profitability, exploring the impact on employees, customers, and long-term sustainability.
Galileo: A New Learning Platform
Josh introduces Galileo, a revolutionary platform built with 25 years of research, designed to empower consultants, vendors, and businesses through generative AI-powered insights.
Josh Bersin
Podcast: The Josh Bersin Company Podcast – Featuring Josh’s thoughts and real-world case studies on HR, leadership, and business.
Website: joshbersin.com/
Jessica Kriegel:
Website: https://www.jessicakriegel.com/
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicakriegel
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jess_kriegel/
Culture Partners:
Website: https://culturepartners.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/culturepartners/
TRANSCRIPT
Jessica Kriegel: I feel like I’m sitting in the room of a celebrity. This is your living room?
Josh Bersin: Yes, it is. This is also where much of the Bersin Academy was recorded.
Jessica Kriegel: I hear quite a bit of things were recorded here. So, you’ve been doing this in this room for a long time. I’m honored that you’ve invited me here to chat with you about what’s going on in the world of HR.
Josh Bersin: Thank you, Jessica. Nice to meet you.
Jessica Kriegel: So, Josh, my very first question is, what is your why?
Josh Bersin: Well, I have to say, I stumbled into this, so there wasn’t really a mission in the beginning. But what I discovered around the late ’90s when I started was that I really was laid off at a tech company and was always interested in the applications of technology at work. Over the last 25 years, I found that HR professionals are incredibly important to companies, but many times they’re marginalized or underinvested in. My “why” is that I love HR people and the HR function. If I can help everyone in that profession do a better job, we can help them, their companies, and their employees be successful.
Jessica Kriegel: But you’re a CEO. You’re not the head of HR. So, you have a unique perspective on HR’s role in driving business results. There’s this tension, it seems, between CEOs and HR. Does HR have a seat at the table yet?
Josh Bersin: Oh, definitely. Absolutely. Well, maybe not everywhere, okay. Most of our clients are bigger companies, and the older a company gets, the more cycles it goes through, the more respectful it becomes of HR. In the early stages, fast-growing companies often see HR as just a recruiting department and don’t focus on complex issues like culture, diversity, pay equity, and development. They just want people in the door. But when companies face downturns or disruptions, then suddenly there’s a massive evaluation process. Ultimately, it often comes back to people, and companies realize they need to take HR more seriously.
Jessica Kriegel: And I believe every company of every size could probably perform better if they paid more attention to what HR does. But every leader goes through their own learning process. In my experience, every leader thinks they’re an expert in HR simply because they’re good at payroll and compliance, right? How many CEOs have strong opinions about talent management or remote work?
Josh Bersin: Exactly. As a successful business person, you might think you know how to manage and hire people well, but everybody has blind spots. If you’ve only ever worked in a high-growth company, you’ve missed the experience of working in a turnaround situation and vice versa. HR can help leaders tremendously, especially in large organizations where individual skills alone aren’t enough. It’s about building leaders, a culture, and an organization that can succeed, and that’s why HR is so essential.
Jessica Kriegel: And yet, there’s a tendency to disrespect HR as a profession. Many companies still see HR as a cost center or a service center. A lot of our research has focused on moving HR from being seen as a cost to becoming a value creator or a consulting function in the company.
Josh Bersin: I agree. And sometimes, people who aren’t performing well in other roles are transferred into HR, as if it’s an easy job. But HR is complex, and there’s value in respecting HR professionals for their skills and knowledge.
Jessica Kriegel: Absolutely. HR is constantly dealing with a changing dynamic: people are working differently, expectations are evolving, and the employer-employee relationship has changed significantly. Take layoffs, for example. Thirty years ago, layoffs were a last resort for a struggling company. Now, the stock market often rewards layoffs, which has significant consequences for employee engagement.
Josh Bersin: So where do you see society heading in this context?
Jessica Kriegel: Well, I’m old enough to have experienced a completely different environment. Before the internet and social media, finding a job was hard and time-consuming. When you got a job, you stuck with it because it took effort to find something new. Now, transparency and job-hopping are common, and people don’t feel the same loyalty to companies.
Josh Bersin: What was the incentive for employers to be loyal back then?
Jessica Kriegel: It was just as hard to hire as it was to find a job. It was difficult for both sides because the systems we have now didn’t exist. When I was at IBM, leaving the company felt like a major life change.
Jessica Kriegel: What was the incentive for employers to be loyal back then?
Josh Bersin: It was just as hard to hire as it was to find a job. We didn’t have the systems we have now. I remember when I was at IBM, I planned on working there my entire career. Then the company struggled, but leaving was a big deal. People didn’t change jobs often. It was risky to leave, and there was a big barrier between industries.
Jessica Kriegel: And now?
Josh Bersin: Now, people can apply for a job online without their boss knowing, and the workforce is empowered to look for new jobs. This shift in transparency and norms has made job mobility acceptable, even encouraged. You can work multiple jobs or be an influencer. The relationship between employer and employee has transformed.
Jessica Kriegel: And layoffs are just part of business now.
Josh Bersin: Exactly. It’s not a black mark anymore. The gig economy has also changed the landscape. Many people have side gigs or work in talent marketplaces. Employers now have to think about their value proposition to attract and retain talent.
Jessica Kriegel: Let’s talk about culture. How do you define culture in an organization?
Josh Bersin: Culture is the unwritten rules of what’s valued and rewarded in a company. It’s the behavior, reward systems, and patterns of human conduct within an organization. Each company has a unique culture that’s usually established by its founders and is difficult to change over time.
Jessica Kriegel: I think of examples like Boeing. They were once known for their engineering culture. Over time, they became more financially driven, and now they’re struggling to return to those engineering roots.
Josh Bersin: Exactly. Culture can shift, and that shift can have long-lasting effects. Boeing’s culture was once deeply tied to engineering, but over time, as the company’s goals changed, so did the culture.
Jessica Kriegel: With unions and strikes happening more frequently—Starbucks, ports, and hotels—do you think there’s a movement or shift in employee power?
Josh Bersin: Yes, I think employees are feeling more activated. There’s a term we use, “employee activation,” where people feel empowered to demand change. When management becomes disconnected from the day-to-day lives of employees, things can break down, and employees often resort to unionizing to make their voices heard.
Jessica Kriegel: But isn’t listening to employees something that seems like it should be easy? It feels like most consulting firms, including ours, emphasize listening to employees.
Josh Bersin: Listening isn’t as easy as it sounds. Surveys alone aren’t enough. You need conversations and meetings to truly understand what’s going on. Some core values might even need to change, and a consulting firm can help create safe environments where employees feel they can speak openly without fear.
Jessica Kriegel: And many CEOs seem confident that they’re getting honest feedback from employees, but I often doubt that’s the case.
Josh Bersin: Exactly. People at the top often have blinders, and employees may not feel comfortable speaking candidly. A consultant’s job is to reveal those truths in a constructive way.
Jessica Kriegel: You’ve been the CEO of two companies now. How was the transition from running a small, innovative company to joining Deloitte?
Josh Bersin: We were a small, scrappy team at Bersin & Associates. Joining Deloitte was exciting because they offered incredible resources and support, and they genuinely respected our work. But consulting firms require a different pace and energy. We were a product-focused company, and shifting to a consulting model was challenging for us.
Jessica Kriegel: And now the focus of many CEOs has shifted from profitability to growth. What are your thoughts on that?
Josh Bersin: It’s complicated. There’s a market pressure for growth, often at the expense of profitability. Amazon, for example, proved that growth could be more valuable than profit in the short term. But for employees and customers, constant growth can lead to instability and burnout. It can put a strain on the entire organization.
Jessica Kriegel: So do you think there’s something broken in the incentive structure of public companies?
Josh Bersin: The stock market values companies that grow quickly, which creates a high-pressure environment. This pressure makes it hard for CEOs to think long-term, and the economy becomes more dynamic because underperforming companies are quickly replaced. The question is whether leaders are prepared for that pace and can manage the associated risks.
Jessica Kriegel: You’ve also talked about companies as mini-societies. Can you expand on that?
Josh Bersin: Sure. Companies are like societies with people from diverse backgrounds, skill levels, and ambitions. A well-run society makes things work for everyone, even if not everyone gets along. Similarly, companies need to foster environments where people feel they belong and can contribute. This sense of belonging ultimately leads to higher performance.
Jessica Kriegel: I love that analogy. And I know you’re very interested in DEI. How has the mission of diversity and inclusion changed over the years?
Josh Bersin: DEI started as a business practice aimed at making companies more inclusive and higher performing. But over time, it became more politicized, often focusing on societal change rather than just business outcomes. Ideally, DEI initiatives should help organizations become more effective by fostering respect and inclusivity among employees.
Jessica Kriegel: You mentioned spirituality in leadership. Can we talk about that? I’m personally interested in the role of spirituality in business.
Josh Bersin: For me, the spirituality of business is tied to problem-solving and adding value. Business is an ultimate problem-solving arena, and successful leaders keep their mission and purpose in mind. That’s what I mean by spirituality in business—it’s about understanding the “why” behind what we do and keeping that front and center.
Jessica Kriegel: And what about AI? There’s a lot of fear around it. Do you think AI will ruin the world?
Josh Bersin: I don’t buy into the fear of AI. AI is one of the most incredible productivity tools we’ve seen. Like any tool, it’s about how we use it. AI has the potential to greatly enhance productivity, and as long as we put guardrails in place, I believe it will be a positive force.
Jessica Kriegel: But are there unintended consequences?
Josh Bersin: Absolutely. Every technology has unintended consequences. Social media, for example, has impacted mental health. But it’s up to policymakers and companies to create boundaries around these tools. The creators of AI are not inherently “evil”—it’s about creating a framework for responsible use.
Jessica Kriegel: I think many CEOs struggle with making decisions that balance profitability and doing the “right thing.” How do you see that playing out?
Josh Bersin: It’s challenging because the market rewards short-term gains. The CEOs who succeed at this are often those who convince investors to trust their long-term vision. In countries like the Nordics, CEOs aren’t as public or celebrated, and companies prioritize work-life balance. It’s a different model that can lead to long-term success without the pressure for constant growth.
Jessica Kriegel: So, last question. What’s something you wish you were asked in interviews but rarely are?
Josh Bersin: I think people don’t always know that I’m more of an entrepreneur than an analyst. Running a company is incredibly challenging, and it gives me a firsthand perspective on the problems I analyze. For me, leading a business is the most fascinating and rewarding part of my career.
Jessica Kriegel: That’s insightful. Thank you so much, Josh, for sharing your time and thoughts. This has been a joy.
Josh Bersin: Thank you, Jessica. It was great speaking with you.
